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Let's Talk about Factom's Repeated Lies and "mistakes" - per cryptonaught's request

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  • brighton36

    @cryptonaught - RE: If you feel so strongly about Factom why didn't you continue your thread from before, without me provoking you? We talk about it all the time on our show. I didn't post it here because I wanted to verify and collect the links and such, which takes a bit of time. You kept prompting, so here it is. As for the misspelling - I apologize, it was unintentional :)

    I was waiting for Coinfire to do an expose on the project, but now that they've gone under - I don't think we'll get that

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  • Phoenix

    @brighton36 @phoenix - If you're trolling, I salute you. I linked to nearly all claims. The stuff that's anecdotal is easily followed up on (conversations with the Reuters reporter, say) . If you can't see these facts, then yes Factom is clearly for you.

    Why not reply on his post?

    I really shouldn't be spending time on the business model more than I have, but here's the TLDR: Factom is competing with 3 cents per notarization. And worse than that - these notarizations come at a much, much greater risk than a bitcoin notarization (We have no idea how long the factom chain will last and whether the incentives of the system will support the infrastructure, and whether the project will actually decentralize to any meaningful degree of utility).

    Now - if you're telling me that factom notarizations make sense because people need to notarize more than one every ten minutes, then their solution is to merely store the merkle root for those notarizations every ten minutes. And guess what happens then? Those notarizations cost a fraction of the 3 cents. So - the more you notarize, the more you save!

    So, Paul would have you believe that there's enough notarization counterparty risk out there to warrant notarizing in realtime with Factom. I call BS on that customer, or at the least, that customer is so few and far between that there's no way their notarizations can support the federated server infrastructure.

    I don't expect you to understand this, but, probably most people around here will, so I'll post this anyways.

    That's funny....or crazy! I asked you yesterday:

    "You really believe it's just about notarization?" ---> no answer https://letstalkbitcoin.com/forum/post/lets-talk-about-factoms-repeated-lies-and-mistakes-per-cryptonaughts-request#post-139555

    By the way: Did you answer just one of my questions in that post?

    I pointed out, besides many of your attempts: "It’s also about supressing informations, like all the talking about „ notarizations“ to implicate a very limited and needless business-model."

    Please read my post again, to avoid repeating your useless patterns: https://letstalkbitcoin.com/forum/post/lets-talk-about-factoms-repeated-lies-and-mistakes-per-cryptonaughts-request?page=2#post-139643

    I ask you again: You really believe it's just about notarization?

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  • brighton36

    Yes. I know it's about notarization. Because that's the economic efficiency being promoted. But, I'm sure you believe otherwise. So tell me what else it's about?

    Because you've been told that somehow your factoids will prevent : Sony hacks, land title reappropriation, IoT ....

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  • adam

    lol, i'm not claiming to represent anybody other than my own disinterested self.

    You'd have made an actual argument about Factom by now if you had one to make. @brighton36 I'm around if you get some evidence to back up your claims, until then please try to restrict your badmouthing of people and projects to the ones you can actually back up. We don't need extra drama, there's enough real work to do without you waving your arms at passersby looking for a cookie.

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  • PaulSnow

    @Brighton36 has clearly not done any research on Factom. If he had read the Whitepaper, the Consensus paper, had he followed the feedback from people like Vitalik, Peter Todd, Luke JR, and many, many others, he could talk to Factom more realistically. In fact, both papers were analyzed, in real time, with comments inline with the document as we went through our public review.

    Factom uses a consensus algorithm to build and record entries organized in chains within Factom. A chain represents more than a simple notarization of data, but actually creates a set of data that can be used not only to show what has been entered into the record, but also what has not been entered. Individual entries can be signed, to demonstrate the authority of the submitter.

    What @brighton36 keeps talking about is simple Proof of Existence. Factom is providing a Proof of Process. This is actually very powerful for building immutable audit trails, of which Bitcoin's Blockchain is one incredible example.

    Factom also anchors its structures into the Bitcoin Blockchain in such a way that it must follow the majority of the servers. It can be branched (i.e. some set of servers can take the history and start building in another direction) but it cannot be forked (where a majority of servers simultaneously begin building two histories). If the protocol dies, one could run the Factom software to continue supporting your applications (since it is open source). You would have to document a branch (assuming a majority of the Factom servers don't choose to support you) but you could continue on.

    The proofs of data in Factom remain as long as you have the Factom data and the Bitcoin blockchain. I like to say that you trust Factom for 10 minutes, and Bitcoin forever.

    We will deploy a set of 32 federated servers to record this data. These servers have shifting authority over different parts of the network at different times. This ensures that even if some server fails to record your entries because they don't like you, eventually some server will. Unless they are all corrupted.

    Behind the 32 federated servers, we have 32 audit servers. These servers are online ready to replace a federated server should they 1) fail, or 2) get faulted out for breaking the protocol, or 3) lose support from the users of the Factom protocol. The 32 federated servers and the 32 audit servers are paid Factoids to run the protocol. They also set the conversion rate of Factoids to Entry Credits. Factoids are tradable, Entry Credits (which you can think of as empowered public/private keys) are not.

    So a Factom Protocol user can simply buy Entry Credits and empower a public/private key pair. Then use that pair to sign messages to create chains and create entries. That's it. They don't need a wallet (you can't transfer Entry Credits anyway) and the security of their application is higher because there isn't anything to steal really by getting this private key other than to write data into Factom.

    Furthermore, if your application is concerned about exposure to Cryptocurrency (like you are a US business with needs for many records, say to create audit trails for subcontractors) you are not exposed to MSB or MTB rules, or capital gains on the token. It is just a token for the protocol anyway, with no resale value. The price of Entry Credits can be kept at a steady 1/10 a penny, no matter what the value of Factoids are. So as a user, you don't care when you buy them. As long as you have enough for your purposes.

    Further, the use of Entry Credits provides proof of use of the protocol, and is the basis for electing the Federated Servers. This is very much like Poof of Stake, only it is more like Proof of Use. The value for voting of Entry Credits degrades over time, so it is only the users of the protocol that have say about how the Federated Servers are. This influence can be delegated, so that users can use parties to protect their interests without having to pay attention to Factom politics. Audit servers can point out (using Factom itself) misbehavior of Federated Servers.

    Looking at the Federated Servers and Audit Servers, they are paid a fixed number of Factoids forever. And the use of Factoids removes them from the supply. So the only way to increase their income is to promote and protect the protocol, because the more the protocol is used, the more Factoids are required, and the lower the Factoid supply will be. If the Factoids are under valued, the Factoid supply will fall, in some cases very rapidly. If Factoids are over valued, the Factoid supply will grow (since it will take fewer Factoids to convert to Entry Credits for the demand of the protocol).

    I spent months trying to figure out how to align the incentives without a token. And I was finally convinced that the token was necessary, and a year and a half later I still know of no way to build Factom without a token.

    I hope this helps.

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  • brighton36

    @Adam - you're nuts. Nearly all claims were citated with public links. If you can't see the hyperlinks next to my claims, then your brain cavity is filled with expired milk.

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  • adam

    @brighton36 @Adam - you're nuts. Nearly all claims were citated with public links. If you can't see the hyperlinks next to my claims, then your brain cavity is filled with expired milk.

    You're a class act Chris but i'm sorry, insulting me doesn't make me go away and it doesn't make you right.

    Hyperlinks to non-issues are not evidence. It's not just the fact that you have links that proves your case, it's the things that the links are supposed to prove they did that is wrong. What have they done that was wrong enough to suggest they are a scam? Your links, from what I can tell, don't suggest anything more untoward than a botched press release.

    I've asked you multiple times to explain what is more serious than that and outside of handwavy accusations about the project viability as a whole you've got nothing to say but attack me and others who question your accusations. I'd actually even enjoy understanding why you think the model isn't going to work if you know enough about it to explain yourself.

    It looks to me like you've painted yourself into a corner and the only thing you can do now is attack the people questioning you in hopes that we go away and you get to win by default. You might get lucky and Factom might fail because (gasp) it's an experimental metaprotocol project, and then you can at least pretend like had this insight way back here, but it's a dumb bet to make because they could succeed too.

    Succeed or fail, neither would mean that the project is a scam. Projects can fail without being scams.

    So again, I don't expect you to back down since obviously this is high stakes for you and I'm sure you'll have something else complimentary to say about my ability to reason in response to this. Just know that i'm not going away no matter how much you insult me and the only way you can make me stop is to run away from the conversation or to provide some actual evidence that backs up your claim that the project is a scam.

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  • brighton36

    I think I see what's wrong here. You don't know the definition of the word scam. Here: a dishonest scheme; a fraud.. I made that case very, very clearly.

    As for backed into a corner - what? I came here to say Factom is a scam. I made my case, and while I'm certain you don't buy it - I'm also certain that this will be revisited when this project heads South. There's no corner here, and there's no high stakes involved for me.

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  • Phoenix

    @brighton36 Yes. I know it's about notarization. Because that's the economic efficiency being promoted. But, I'm sure you believe otherwise. So tell me what else it's about?

    Because you've been told that somehow your factoids will prevent : Sony hacks, land title reappropriation, IoT ....

    Interesting... you're not answering a single of my other questions. ;-)

    Just some examples for what Factom can be used:

    You can find more here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=850070.0

    Or here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZlpFmzDKrSmTObhSPuhdSw/videos

    Or if you just would use google to do some research... ;-)

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  • PaulSnow

    @brighton36 @Adam - you're nuts. Nearly all claims were citated with public links. If you can't see the hyperlinks next to my claims, then your brain cavity is filled with expired milk.

    Or someone that can see that the Honduras announcement came AFTER the token sale, not before as you claim.

    And that Epigraph was identified with the announcement, not months later as you claim.

    And that we never claimed to have a contract, as you claim.

    And that I never refused to set the record straight, as you claim. What I refused to do is lie, as you wanted to me to. You wanted me to state that we had been rejected from the project by Honduras. We have not, and we are still working to move the project forward. Honduras has not refuted the original announcement, because ... why?

    The DBS statement was an freely admitted error on our part. Okay.

    We have a working protocol.

    Data is being logged into Factom daily.

    Only 1/3 of the token sale has been released, and we have outside parties that are holding those funds, and outside parties that must validate our milestones to release those funds.

    We have had several rounds of fund raising. That fundraising included selling tokens as software licences, with the only utility of powering the Factom protocol. That was clearly stated in the terms which all purchasers had to agree to to buy the tokens. Of the educated critics out there, Tim Swanson has admitted that we were spotless in our message about what the tokens were, and what the purchase represented.

    In our seed round, we have counted these sales as license sells, consistent with the terms of purchase under which they were sold. As I asked another critic, we have to count them somehow. They are not shares of our company (i.e. they do not infer any ownership of Factom, and in fact were sold by a non-profit entity we set up to manage the Open Source and the protocol). So.... I guess we have to count them as licences. Since that is what they were designed to represent.

    We may have more rounds of fundraising. This is typical for a startup with an expensive technology to develop and deploy. Maybe you don't like fundraising, but it is part of how businesses are founded. Not just Factom.

    On one hand, you seem to be critical because we are raising too much money. On the other hand, you seem to be critical because we are running too lean and have to do more fundraising than you like. Some people cannot be pleased, but I don't think any of this points to dishonesty in our organization.

    @Adam is a very bright guy. If you can't see that you have badly muddled the facts about Factom, and that nobody can take your arguments seriously.... Gee, I don't know what to say. Other than....

    I hope this helps.

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