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Upcoming Bitcoin Hard Fork & /r/bitcoin censorship

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  • MaxEntropy

    Difficult to respond to your points Adam on this iPad...

    The funding and group dynamics are always important. While it is trendy to have global development in script based languages today... it gets things done quickly and pulls in novel ideas... control needs to reside in a region and in a group managed by an individual, with product management and support groups at the ready.

    A disparate group of developers without leadership - I am not in favour of this form of software product development. There are details which enable others to work remotely. But local control is essential.

    --

    I am big supporter of BlockStream. It is fortuitous that founders and developers decided to take a research and design lead. Bitcoin can not scale as it is currently. If Bitcoin Protocol is to be the Internet Protocol of money then extensions such as Lightning and Sidechains are necessary. In this regard, then Bitcoin becomes a settlement network... a reserve currency if you will.

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  • edgelogic

    The language being used here is skewed in favor of the fork and BitcoinXT.. The commercial activities and preferences of the site owners are made quite clear. Whereas the important issue of maintaining consensus within the Bitcoin community, or for instance featuring the concerns of people like Adam Back, Nick Szabo, Peter Todd etc are not featured as a counterpoint... The contra arguments are not presented as part of your article... that is why I am raising it.

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  • adam

    Question:

    Should LTB put together one or a series of Equal-Time presentations with the Pro-XT and Pro-Classic camps to try and convince "the community" to make the change, or not?

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  • adam

    @edgelogic The language being used here is skewed in favor of the fork and BitcoinXT.. The commercial activities and preferences of the site owners are made quite clear. Whereas the important issue of maintaining consensus within the Bitcoin community, or for instance featuring the concerns of people like Adam Back, Nick Szabo, Peter Todd etc are not featured as a counterpoint... The contra arguments are not presented as part of your article... that is why I am raising it.

    There is no article! yet because we're trying to have the discussion here. This is a forum thread, the purpose is to discuss not for you to believe everything you read in the first post.

    The way to introduce the arguments you believe are the strong ones is to introduce those arguements. You keep mentioning things we're not mentioning them but you're the one who knows about them, please educate us.

    Mostly it seems like you're unhappy I don't believe the same thing you do coming into this discussion, but if that was the case we wouldn't need to talk would we? Explain why we're wrong if you want to impact anyone beyond yourself in this conversation.

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  • cryptowanderer

    @dpc I wonder about the argument that imposing higher transaction fees is a good thing. As I see it there are two ways to fund miners long term 1. Higher fees, 2. More transactions. #2 seems to be the best solution since it is good for user adoption and good for miners.

    Sure maybe fees will need to rise as the market demands, but why make it happen artificially with an imposed scarcity of transaction space. Especially this early in the game.

    Inviting more cheap transactions seems like a good thing for all parties.

    This makes a lot of sense to me and - to my mind - provides a good answer to Bram Cohen's claims. Thanks. #2 FTW, absolutely.

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  • adam

    This was linked from the reddit thread calling into question Mike Hearn as the decider of bitcoinxt based on his past actions

    Mike Hearn's Questionable History

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  • twebit

    @twebit What ever happened to the hard fork policy at bitcoin.org? https://bitcoin.org/en/posts/hard-fork-policy Does the XT violate this policy? Always wondered?

    I emailed Gavin for comment on this - One important question is who actually does this apply to? Bitcoin.org isn't an "official" anything, just another site on the internet that can pick what info it displays

    So the 'official" policy might just mean it won't be linked from bitcoin.org

    Also worthy to note that the same people that run bitcoin.org are the ones that run /r/bitcoin, bitcointalk.org and the "official" bitcoin wiki. Good ole Theymos and friends..

    I download my bitcoin core wallet from bitcoin.org. What ever version they put on there I'll take. Deal?

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  • PTheD

    @adam

    Wouldn't it be intellectually dishonest if we pretended we had no opinion and didn't care what anybody else said? This is a conversation, if you want to influence it please contribute rather than calling us out for having a conversation.

    Okay, independent of this specific "discussion" or "argument", and which "side" is "right" or whatever . . . this statement is brilliant. I can't possibly think how many instances in my life (especially ones that are social internet interactions) that this retort and attitude are applicable to.

    It makes me think of when someone makes a "comparison" and another party immediately takes offence at whatever the most negative characteristics of one of the things being compared has and then responds: "are you comparing me to . . ."; but of course the attitude and spirit of their indignation stems from the word "equating" not "comparing". As if they were being equated with some horrible thing, as opposed to being analogized (compared) to whatever narrowly relevant factor is identifiable in the comparison.

    The first party is trying to bring into the discussion relevant concepts by way of analogy, and whatever the most negative characteristics of the analogous situation are, are assumed to be a sort of sidelong insult.

    I suppose this is more of what I should have learned long ago: human beings are shit at disagreeing agreeably (even rationally and civilly seem to be a pretty big problem).

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  • Cryptonaut

    @edgelogic Sorry, but comments like: "For the record, at LTB we will be switching all our nodes over to BitcoinXT to ensure we stay on the proper chain when the fork is triggered early next year." Just confirm a clear bias and partiality.. "the proper chain" ... really?

    When I say "proper chain", I mean "longest chain". If we use BitcoinXT, but nobody else does and no fork ever happens, we will still be on the "proper chain". However if we use Bitcoin Core and don't switch when the fork happens (which remember, only happens when a supermajority is triggered), then yeah we will be on the wrong chain.

    A site such as LTB always had an opportunity to try and be impartial, but apparently has never bothered. Mike Hearn's open letter justifying his actions is full of so many logical contradictions its embarrassing. The essential nature of the whole Bitcoin movement is about 'consensus', anyone going along with this coup, clearly doesn't understand that. Disruptive innovation takes time.. Those who lack patience and want to force their ideas through without clear consensus are not in this for the right reasons.. But the history of the crypto currency movement over the last few years is full of people who took an opportunistic, tokensistic approach.. (pun intended).

    Care to point out the specific contradictions you saw in Mikes post? I didn't notice any, seemed pretty spot on to me. I have been glued to the screen following this the past few days and the only response from the opposing side has been censorship and snarky twitter comments. This isn't something that is being rushed out, this has been a long time coming and many people paying attention have been aware of it.

    Also, don't mistake support for XT as any sort of bias for Mike or Gavin specifically. The move to BitcoinXT is about keeping in line with the original values of bitcoin described by Satoshi and outlined in the Bitcoin whitepaper. Global, electronic, P2P cash for the internet. It's the reason we are all here to begin with. Unfortunately much of the Core dev team (see: blockstream folks) seems to have strayed from those values and have decided bitcoin is better suited as a high value settlement network, and that it is better to stall growth and only do things their way, despite what the rest of the ecosystem thinks. If the same sort of deadlock situation happens with BitcoinXT years from now, then it will suffer the same fate.

    And to re-quote what @adam just quoted :p

    This is how the system is supposed to work. If the big-blockists are able to persuade the majority of miners, exchanges, and users that bigger blocks are better, they will win in the end. If not, the small-blockists will win. Either way, in the end, the shorter chain will be abandoned eventually, and there will be only one Bitcoin again.

    Also, forgetting everything else for a moment.. I think it is worthwhile to prove that Bitcoin can be successfully evolved and forked away from the main project maintainers, and still survive afterwards. It's the anti-fragility of the internet in action

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  • edgelogic

    I am genuinely worried for Bitcoin's future.. a fork mandated by a minority against the wishes of many of the core Bitcoin dev's is controversial to say the least. I would go further and say it is akin to a hostile take over of Bitcoin.

    So, I have to apologize though, because, I am actually sitting here trying to do too many things at once, and I haven't got a lot of time to spend at the moment to provide an in depth response, but I did feel a responsibility to say something. If anything it's Hearn's piece that deserves a thorough response, and rebuttal because I found it very disingenuous and bizarre.

    Like 'MaxEntropy', I am a supporter of all that Blockstream is doing and I pay particularly close attention to Adam Back and his views, and I have always found him to be very balanced and sensible. In contrast the things that Hearn said about the Lightening Network sub project are just ridiculous. It is not an 'either or' choice proposition between Bitcoin and Lightening Networks, that is ridiculous... and as Hearn well knows, these type of developments take time. (Look for instance at his own Lighthouse project).

    From my point of view.. the most serious issue is the one consistently highlighted by Adam Back and by the person that posted that message claiming to be Satoshi, whether it was him or not.. The issue is 'consensus'.. To disregard it, is cavalier and fool hardy, and so one has to question why?

    Fools rush in where angels fear to tread..

    Yes, I am concerned.

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