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Upcoming Bitcoin Hard Fork & /r/bitcoin censorship

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  • Cryptonaut

    @omniedge BitcoinXT is a fork which i doubt is widely demanded by the community. Even if it is it might arguably not make it better. A fork happens when developers take a copy of source code from one software package and start independent development on it, creating a distinct and separate piece of software. The term often implies not merely a development branch, but a split in the developer community, a form of schism. This fork is dividing Bitcoin-core into 2 camps while there is, currently, no issue . A BIP would be more appropriate. Why doesn't the XT camp promote a BIP? Divide and conquer seems to be on the menu at the moment.

    There is a BIP, it's BIP 101, submitted last month here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0101.mediawiki

    The problem is that Greg Maxwell and a few others have explicitly said they will reject any pull requests from Gavin relating to this, so instead he's releasing it through XT. If the Core devs want to avoid any possible split in consensus, they can include the same patch implementing BIP 101 with minimal effort. It's compatible with both Core and XT. There is even a version of XT which is specifically just the default version of Core but with the added big blocks patch, making it even easier (https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/tree/only-bigblocks)

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  • IvanB

    @omniedge

    BitcoinXT is a fork which i doubt is widely demanded by the community. Even if it is it might arguably not make it better. A fork happens when developers take a copy of source code from one software package and start independent development on it, creating a distinct and separate piece of software. The term often implies not merely a development branch, but a split in the developer community, a form of schism. This fork is dividing Bitcoin-core into 2 camps while there is, currently, no issue . A BIP would be more appropriate. Why doesn't the XT camp promote a BIP? Divide and conquer seems to be on the menu at the moment.

    How would you know if this fork is or is not widely demanded by the community without offering users/miners/merchants the ability to run it? There's no voting mechanism built into bitcoin for changes in the rules and therefore the fork is necessary to gauge demand. It's either that or we trust the core devs to do their own polling, which doesn't seem to be working.

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  • OmniEdge

    Hopefully, this Bitcoin scalability workshop will bring some harmony to all the current noise. https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/

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  • sangye

    This has been a painful chat to read - mostly because there is such a flame feel around the whole thing. Interesting the story of how the various online "so called" communities are leaning one way or another.

    Why would people get so irate unless they were either ignorant or felt they had a vest interest in one way or another.

    The way i see the collaboration of the "core developers" is with both admiration and the sigh of experience working in software dev or any IT core team who try to be a "democracy". I agree that the role of the lead developer is to lead. When you don't lead someone will say "you suck as a leader" at some point. When you do they'll possibly say "i thought this was a democracy" when they don't get it their way. Alas this is the case and its also true that when you aren't at the center of it all you'll have these mischievous types who want it to break before it gets fixed for their own amusement but they rant and rave as if it is a reasonable position. Then there is the type of rant that is to accuse the "large blockists" of having no basis for their concern - which is so ignorant in itself since there are statistics, stress test results and so on to prove what someone who has a basic understanding of transactions being put into blocks can easily just comprehend - that eventually ... there will be lack of capacity.

    So is it any wonder that a large amount of people are easily convinced that the capacity planning aspect is relevant. I am aware of the many other arguments and i am not trying to address them, just the fact that i feel the general ignorance of this whole scene if people can't imagine what it is like if "you were in charge" and you had to weigh up risk of doing nothing vs risk of not doing something (about blocksize).

    I personally hope the size is just an upper limit and that people can still make small blocks until they need to tune up their node. As long as it works out like that i really think the arguments are politics and not really designer relevant. Design is to make the currency do what you want and not to exploit economic side effects of supply and demand (for transactions).

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  • deweller

    What I'm really interested in seeing is how many miners will adopt Bitcoin XT.

    Here is the first (!) mined block reporting that it was mined using Bitcoin XT:

    https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000174419fa2ba5003e123dbd97c6982aff1863f016b04789d

    Here is a site to track how many of the last blocks were mined by Bitcoin XT:

    http://xtnodes.com/

    A hard fork will happen when 750 of the last 1000 blocks were mined with Bitcoin XT (but no sooner than January).

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  • pooktwo

    @sangye This has been a painful chat to read - mostly because there is such a flame feel around the whole thing. Interesting the story of how the various online "so called" communities are leaning one way or another.

    Why would people get so irate unless they were either ignorant or felt they had a vest interest in one way or another.

    The way i see the collaboration of the "core developers" is with both admiration and the sigh of experience working in software dev or any IT core team who try to be a "democracy". I agree that the role of the lead developer is to lead. When you don't lead someone will say "you suck as a leader" at some point. When you do they'll possibly say "i thought this was a democracy" when they don't get it their way. Alas this is the case and its also true that when you aren't at the center of it all you'll have these mischievous types who want it to break before it gets fixed for their own amusement but they rant and rave as if it is a reasonable position. Then there is the type of rant that is to accuse the "large blockists" of having no basis for their concern - which is so ignorant in itself since there are statistics, stress test results and so on to prove what someone who has a basic understanding of transactions being put into blocks can easily just comprehend - that eventually ... there will be lack of capacity.

    So is it any wonder that a large amount of people are easily convinced that the capacity planning aspect is relevant. I am aware of the many other arguments and i am not trying to address them, just the fact that i feel the general ignorance of this whole scene if people can't imagine what it is like if "you were in charge" and you had to weigh up risk of doing nothing vs risk of not doing something (about blocksize).

    I personally hope the size is just an upper limit and that people can still make small blocks until they need to tune up their node. As long as it works out like that i really think the arguments are politics and not really designer relevant. Design is to make the currency do what you want and not to exploit economic side effects of supply and demand (for transactions).

    I agree that everything you have said has some truth to it. I even addressed that i kind of feel bad for him. But if you choose to become a leader, these are the burdens that you must take on. If you cannot handle them, then you are not meant to be a leader.

    There is always going to be two sides to an argument, and the side that a leader doesn't choose is always going to be mad. Pro life vs choice, legalize pot vs not, gay rights vs no marriage equality, and now core vs XT.

    However all that being said, if people are really that upset about the /r/bitcoin then they will find alternatives, just like if a majority of people choose XT, then bitcoin will move to XT.

    I think the intensity of the debate and the reddit censorship is beginning to dwindle away as almost all heated arguments like this do. Now it is time for each of us (being those who run nodes) to make a decision about running core or XT. And honestly which ever one wins it doesnt really matter, because i would assume the entire Bitcoin community will continue on mining and using Bitcoin.

    Then after this, we will wait until the next big debate that will show the same emotion as this one has. I really actually love how passionate people are getting about a big decision like this, it shows that no matter what side of the debate you are on, we all truly care about the success of bitcoin and cryptocurrency.

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  • btcdroid

    @betrouhi how i can get coin bitcoin xt, how i can mined XT

    Download here: https://bitcoinxt.software/?ref=producthunt

    Bitcoin-XT is the same as Bitcoin-Core, except it fixes the block size problem "once and for all". It's not a new alt-coin. It's mined the same as mining Bitcoin-Core, which means that most people won't be mining it -- it's not profitable to mine as an individual.

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  • brighton36

    @adamlevine : We all know you love your shitcoins, but bitcoinxt is an obvious attempt by Gavin and Mike to use you like a tool: http://shitco.in/2015/08/19/the-bitcoin-xt-trojan/

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  • IvanB

    @brighton36 @adamlevine : We all know you love your shitcoins, but bitcoinxt is an obvious attempt by Gavin and Mike to use you like a tool: http://shitco.in/2015/08/19/the-bitcoin-xt-trojan/

    The "you're too stupid to understand why BitcoinXT is bad" argument has been repeated fairly often by those clearly opposed to it. Do you think framing the argument in this manner is likely to accomplish your goals? Or is more likely to drive the wedge even further in the community and make it even less likely to have a common agreement on scalability?

    Also, the long winded article you reference ranks very high on the conspiracy theory scale, which I'm sure is interesting to a number of people - I'm not one of them. A large part of the handwringing about blacklists centers around the anti-ddos mechanism in XT. In case you want to read more about it, here it is, when Mike Hearn announced it 3 weeks ago (not exactly a hidden feature).

    https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bitcoin-xt/wwj54iGCVmI/lGTsWSUyuAMJ

    For those that don't want it, this feature is easy to disable via the -disableipprio flag.

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  • Cryptonaut

    @ivanb

    @brighton36 @adamlevine : We all know you love your shitcoins, but bitcoinxt is an obvious attempt by Gavin and Mike to use you like a tool: http://shitco.in/2015/08/19/the-bitcoin-xt-trojan/

    The "you're too stupid to understand why BitcoinXT is bad" argument has been repeated fairly often by those clearly opposed to it. Do you think framing the argument in this manner is likely to accomplish your goals? Or is more likely to drive the wedge even further in the community and make it even less likely to have a common agreement on scalability?

    Also, the long winded article you reference ranks very high on the conspiracy theory scale, which I'm sure is interesting to a number of people - I'm not one of them. A large part of the handwringing about blacklists centers around the anti-ddos mechanism in XT. In case you want to read more about it, here it is, when Mike Hearn announced it 3 weeks ago (not exactly a hidden feature).

    https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bitcoin-xt/wwj54iGCVmI/lGTsWSUyuAMJ

    For those that don't want it, this feature is easy to disable via the -disableipprio flag.

    I notice that a lot of the same types of people that /r/buttcoin likes to make fun of are the same ones in the anti-big-blocks crowd - very romantic view of bitcoin and seeing conspiracies at every corner, while at the same time seeming to have little idea on how this stuff works (often because they aren't programmers, or inexperienced/naive). And everybody loves to overthink things and take shit out of context to try and win their arguments or fit their narrative (e.g "omg Gavin talked to the CIA so therefore he's corrupt")... just makes them look stupid.. sad, really. Some of the stuff I have read the past few days makes you really understand why there is a community called buttcoin lol.

    Some other thoughts:

    • Some certain Maximalists are going to be very disappointed when no viable "XTCoin" "CoreCoin" market is created. I shouldn't have to explain why that is a) extremely unlikely and b) an extremely stupid idea for any serious exchange
    • Putting a protocol change up for pure network consensus vote is a method of last resort, but is also one of the most important tools we have since it can prevent centralization of the development team. This could have been prevented a while ago, but it is what it is. Something like this would inevitably happen.. don't forget it's only year 6.
    • @brighton36 Bitcoin is not punk rock, Bitcoin is death metal, punk rockers are pussies. Hope you can handle yourself in the Pit :)
    • It's going to be fun a year from now looking back and then seeing what the losing side (whichever way it goes) has to say for themselves. For example luke-jr has said a few times already that if the switch to XT and block size increase happens he will probably go and find some other alt-coin to work on. Unfortunate that it's become that big of a deal to some people.
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