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Upcoming Bitcoin Hard Fork & /r/bitcoin censorship

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  • sangye

    @ivanb What you describe would mean that the majority of advanced country citizens will be incapable of streaming HD or UHD video in the coming years. I don't think that this is accurate.

    Also, there is a ton of work that needs to be done on p2p selection based upon bandwidth, latency and reliability instead of merely random connections from differing ASes. I don't need to connect from LA to Tokyo to grab the next block.

    So yes, for wealthy people in the right locations the ISP will make it work - and sure if you can pay $60 a month it will be ok. For people in some areas it will sometimes work and sometimes not - or they'll have to buffer the video a lot. That's what happens now, and it will happen more and more for people trying to use 4k streams in the first years. I've visited people who have perfectly functional subscriber servers to live streaming video services and others who find it to be a joke.

    I agree, big upgrades are on the way, and locally we are deploying 10gbit backbone into our LAN because it is just getting affordable for us - we edit video. I am biased to less wealthy or remote locations - so its a different viewpoint to someone who lives mostly in urban environments. Much of the world gets their videos from p2p and even DVDs on the corner - you know, the 3rd world. They are often 5-8 years behind before they see full access to good technology infrastructure. I just seek that we don't use the "everyone" fallacy - when its really quite different everywhere.

    HD streaming does work, i said that - and in coming years better will work reliably in developed nations. I didn't say it doesn't, but i was explaining that quoting the full speed vs the real averge throughput matters. HD streaming only works because h.264 and h.265 compress it so amazingly well.

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  • IvanB

    @sangye

    @ivanb What you describe would mean that the majority of advanced country citizens will be incapable of streaming HD or UHD video in the coming years. I don't think that this is accurate.

    Also, there is a ton of work that needs to be done on p2p selection based upon bandwidth, latency and reliability instead of merely random connections from differing ASes. I don't need to connect from LA to Tokyo to grab the next block.

    So yes, for wealthy people in the right locations the ISP will make it work - and sure if you can pay $60 a month it will be ok. For people in some areas it will sometimes work and sometimes not - or they'll have to buffer the video a lot. That's what happens now, and it will happen more and more for people trying to use 4k streams in the first years. I've visited people who have perfectly functional subscriber servers to live streaming video services and others who find it to be a joke.

    But it's always been the case that running a full node was for the wealthier users. After all, if you live on a few $ per day worth of income and have to share an old computer with your family, running a full node is out of the question - this has been the majority of the world since at least the genesis block.

    However, I don't see this as a problem. Using Bitcoin as an SPV user is perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of Bitcoin users who have neither the resources nor the need for filling up a hard drive with 50 GB worth of blocks.

    The important facet is that they are capable of accessing the bitcoin network directly without needing to go through a Coinbase like service, unless they choose to. That's what bigger blocks are about - keeping fees low enough that Bitcoin doesn't turn into a settlement service only accessible by the uber-wealthy or by 100-200 bank-like entities such as Coinbase and whatnot.

    I agree, big upgrades are on the way, and locally we are deploying 10gbit backbone into our LAN because it is just getting affordable for us - we edit video. I am biased to less wealthy or remote locations - so its a different viewpoint to someone who lives mostly in urban environments. Much of the world gets their videos from p2p and even DVDs on the corner - you know, the 3rd world. They are often 5-8 years behind before they see full access to good technology infrastructure. I just seek that we don't use the "everyone" fallacy - when its really quite different everywhere.

    HD streaming does work, i said that - and in coming years better will work reliably in developed nations. I didn't say it doesn't, but i was explaining that quoting the full speed vs the real averge throughput matters. HD streaming only works because h.264 and h.265 compress it so amazingly well.

    Agreed, there are a ton of aspects that make streaming work including compression and CDNs. However, UHD requires 18mbit/s and we know that is coming to the average 1st world citizen. For the average 3rd world citizen, they will have their phone and an SPV wallet. It's important to work on mobile lightweight solutions and improve upon the security of these devices since the average user does not need nor want a full node.

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  • btcdroid

    @sangye I see the future as just having a very saturated, oversubscribed, overused internet where you can never count on the full speed being available to syncronize your blockchain. The size will matter once it grows for a few cycles and that will just become apparent and people will migrate to other alt-coins that work.

    How can moving to different alt-coins help if the network bandwidth isn't available for the total number of transactions, whether they are sent as big Bitcoin blocks or hundreds of smaller alt-coin blocks? That's like leaving your Civic at home and driving your Prius to avoid a traffic jam.

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  • sangye

    @btcdroid

    @sangye I see the future as just having a very saturated, oversubscribed, overused internet where you can never count on the full speed being available to syncronize your blockchain. The size will matter once it grows for a few cycles and that will just become apparent and people will migrate to other alt-coins that work.

    How can moving to different alt-coins help if the network bandwidth isn't available for the total number of transactions, whether they are sent as big Bitcoin blocks or hundreds of smaller alt-coin blocks? That's like leaving your Civic at home and driving your Prius to avoid a traffic jam.

    I'll leave the burden of explanation with you - that's just a metaphor that makes no sense to me. In network traffic goes point to point - the whole network doesn't get flooded everywhere because of one heavy blockchain. I think we have left the realm of an understanding of basic networking here ... depends on application, mining, user wallet ... even trading if its related to costs of sending and time to receive confirmations. Some alt-coins are very high performance, low cost and can be converted back in future when the prices are at an advantage ... so many different bits of experience, if you don't use alt-coins, trade, run nodes, mine ... all of this might be hard to explain or understand.

    Users of lighter chains - by definition with less users and less transactions would find it quicker to scan and it would thus work better. So its like avoiding the traffic jam with a motorcycle ... simple. Your metaphor is just imaginary to sound good with no real reason i can see. If it isn't explain why?

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  • btcdroid

    In network traffic goes point to point - the whole network doesn't get flooded everywhere because of one heavy blockchain

    Not to get bogged down in technical details, but the Internet is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes.

    Users of lighter chains - by definition with less users and less transactions would find it quicker to scan and it would thus work better.

    Of course a lighter chain is smaller than a big chain. But the point of the block size debate is to provide a method to scale up the number of transactions. More transactions means more data. Using multiple "light" chains can't avoid that.

    So its like avoiding the traffic jam with a motorcycle ... simple. Your metaphor is just imaginary to sound good with no real reason i can see. If it isn't explain why?

    Where I live, motorcycles get stuck in traffic jams too -- they can't lane-split legally, nor can they fly.

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  • adam

    Right, I've been thinking about the "no block increase" argument that doesn't sacrifice p2p and what you wind up with is lots of purpose specific chains interoperating with bitcoin as a "money" layer. Depending on what you think about merged mining, it looks a whole lot like side-chains or a layer that connects bitcoin and altcoins.

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  • sangye

    @adam Right, I've been thinking about the "no block increase" argument that doesn't sacrifice p2p and what you wind up with is lots of purpose specific chains interoperating with bitcoin as a "money" layer. Depending on what you think about merged mining, it looks a whole lot like side-chains or a layer that connects bitcoin and altcoins.

    Agreed - it is very good if bitcoin gets bigger blocks and the adoption rate continues onward and upward this is fine - that can create pressure to maintain performance as we scale up. If on the other hand blocks stay small that will just lead to cross chain solutions but we don't have to wait for side chains or lightning network because we already have exchanges and many layers of abstraction. We have been through a lot of pump and dump scam coins but there are many coins that are evenly distributed enjoying a good run and they are secure enough to be usable without the huge hashing power of the bitcoin network securing those.. The evolution of users minds and experience with pathways across these networks ... is a way of making the most of what we already have.

    Advantages slower changes, more observation will show up unexpected use cases, patterns and even businesses thriving making use of several chains - which in many ways stimulates the economy and enriches the ecosystem.

    Bitcoin is a very generic and applications of it are constantly arising - and so scenarios where 2 blockchains solve a problem via shapeshift effectively solve right now certain problems. As i said, i often use other alt-coins to shift value and the experience of buying with dash, dogecoin and bitcoin are very similar. For me this means resilience, more communities, more ideas and small free-er playgrounds with less tension involved adopting new changes to the code. I even think that it would be good if there was a test coin simulating bitcoinXT or adopting the types of changes for testing before we take those into the live bitcoin we are trying to promote confidence in.

    No doubt a heavy blockchain with low transaction costs would enable micro-payments, coloured coins, tokens and what have you to thrive - but so would other chains. So the store of value - and large payments on a future small block bitcoin doesn't destroy possibilities when you step back to look at all possibilities available.

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  • ademczuk

    The push for XT backed by 'the sky is falling mantra' by an entity that desires white/blacklisting sounds an awful lot like a coup to encode KYC requirements into future transactions.

    Personally I'm just glad that at the scaling Bitcoin workshop the developers can

    (•_•)

    ( •_•)>⌐□-□

    (⌐□_□)

    Hash it out and pick a solution to this miner problem

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  • adam

    @ademczuk The push for XT backed by 'the sky is falling mantra' by an entity that desires white/blacklisting sounds an awful lot like a coup to encode KYC requirements into future transactions.

    Personally I'm just glad that at the scaling Bitcoin workshop the developers can

    (•_•)

    ( •_•)>⌐□-□

    (⌐□_□)

    Hash it out and pick a solution to this miner problem

    Part of the issue is that the sky sorta is falling, today for example is the start of a 30 day stress test publicity stunt by a wallet maker who wants to shunt people to their wallet because all other wallets that don't automatically raise miner fees in congested networks (which is pretty much just something they're doing right now) will have transactions getting stranded because of their spam attack.

    So they've created a wallet whose distinguishing feature is that in adverse conditions it knows how to pay enough to not get stranded, and to market it they are causing the problem themselves for a full month.

    At 1mb blocks it is not overly expensive to do this, at 8mb blocks it's 8x as difficult

    I'm not taking a position here, just pointing out that 1mb block size is already having negative repercussions on the network - We've already seen transactions getting stuck for hours and the backlog isn't even past 30,000tx yet - I expect a pretty major disruption to reliable service from this and it's costing them less than 100btc to pull it off.

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  • sangye

    @adam

    @ademczuk The push for XT backed by 'the sky is falling mantra' by an entity that desires white/blacklisting sounds an awful lot like a coup to encode KYC requirements into future transactions.

    Personally I'm just glad that at the scaling Bitcoin workshop the developers can

    (•_•)

    ( •_•)>⌐□-□

    (⌐□_□)

    Hash it out and pick a solution to this miner problem

    Part of the issue is that the sky sorta is falling, today for example is the start of a 30 day stress test publicity stunt by a wallet maker who wants to shunt people to their wallet because all other wallets that don't automatically raise miner fees in congested networks (which is pretty much just something they're doing right now) will have transactions getting stranded because of their spam attack.

    So they've created a wallet whose distinguishing feature is that in adverse conditions it knows how to pay enough to not get stranded, and to market it they are causing the problem themselves for a full month.

    At 1mb blocks it is not overly expensive to do this, at 8mb blocks it's 8x as difficult

    I'm not taking a position here, just pointing out that 1mb block size is already having negative repercussions on the network - We've already seen transactions getting stuck for hours and the backlog isn't even past 30,000tx yet - I expect a pretty major disruption to reliable service from this and it's costing them less than 100btc to pull it off.

    More examples of the economic pressure at work over short term time frames. The fragility of the "anti-spam" decision made way back to make the 1MB block size limit. In today's bitcoin reality this seems to be a weakness to a different kind of spamming to saturate the blocks and effectively exclude low cost transactions is possible. The assumption that the market place will decide the correct price is not realistic when there is a block size creating an artificial scarcity of transactions available per 10 minute block creation.

    There are people around saying "the sky is not falling" as an argument to their own words they put in the mouths of others. Another fallacy, a simple contrary statement to something that wasn't even said. Its more of a catch phrase one liner than a true engagement in this debate. What do you think these "big block" argument are saying when they say what you connect with "the sky is falling".

    I see that they are predicting scenarios - so they are really saying "the sky might be falling soon" - and that is much harder to argue against. It is like saying you know the future better than them if you negate that "the sky will never fall" or "the sky won't fall until after this date". We need precise arguments and we do need to plan for the future.

    Adam has the ultimate point - a potential matching scenario that is happening now of the "sky is falling class". For some people making low cost transactions not happen could excluded enough users that bitcoin loses its growth and might be sidelined in favour of other options, including the existing financial industry. Or simple anecdotes like "i tried bitcoin but the transactions don't work" and so on during this stress test.

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