@sull, I agree with nearly everything you just said
I don't want anyone to get screwed over... but I'm personally not a fan of regulation or registries. Binding free currencies back to a registrant obviously has it's pros, but I don't believe that's really in line with the experiment that we're performing here - both here with LTBcoin and more generally with crypto-currencies.
Regardless, do you have any specific ideas for things WE (early LTBcoin folks) can do to address these issues?
Glad we have a space to talk through these issues before we launch!
-CC
The LTB Network Forum
LTBCoin and the start of Private Network Tokens
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Posted on March 25, 2014 at 8:51 PM0 likes
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Posted on March 25, 2014 at 9:25 PM
slashbinslashbash said: The more I read about this coin, the cooler I think it is.
I do have one concern, though, about the initial distribution. You laid out in another thread the payout percentages to content creators, forum members, etc. and I have no problem with any of that. My question is about the amount distributed in that first week; the Genesis Block as it were. If (say) 100k LTBCs are distributed every week, including the first week, the system will see very rapid inflation; first week will be 100% inflation, 2nd week will be 50% inflation, etc. This would result in a rapidly declining per-LTBC valuation for those first few weeks. I would be in favor of a much larger Genesis Block, perhaps as much as 25% of the final money supply, just to prevent the inflation issues. Even if it means tweaking the initial payout percentages, so that (say) content creators get 75% instead of 50%.
If the distribution schedule is known in advance, won't the market immediately price in whatever potential there might be for future inflation as new coins become available?
Also, I don't like the idea of having a premium membership be purchased with fiat, and then that premium membership coming with a certain amount of LTBCs. I think that it should be the other way around -- premium memberships should be purchased with LTBCs! This creates more money flowing into the ecosystem and setting a price floor for LTBC. Instead of $20 for a premium membership, charge 20 LTBC.
In general, I think that the more you can get fiat flowing into LTBC through exchanges, the better off the coin will be. I understand that you and other contributors have to earn a living, but IMHO the best way to do that is by having a liquid market in LTBC (to BTC or directly to fiat). Allowing LTBC to be purchased (directly or indirectly) through other means will just distort the market. In general, just make the statement: "LTBC is the currency of the Let's Talk Bitcoin network, and it is the only currency we accept for payment. If you want to buy anything from us, you must obtain LTBC." I understand that it might be wise to transition to this philosophy over time, but I think that it makes a lot of sense.
I haven't seen any discussion regarding fiat being be used on the LTB network. In fact it will be exclusively LTBcoin and your proposed statement in quotes that LTBcoin is the only currency that will be accepted is precisely what is planned. LTBcoin will be immediately tradeable for BTC and any other asset available on the Counterparty distributed exchange, though we still have to work out the details as regards trading it for fiat.0 likes -
Posted on March 25, 2014 at 9:54 PM
rotalumis said: If the distribution schedule is known in advance, won't the market immediately price in whatever potential there might be for future inflation as new coins become available?
Yes, but assuming that some people want to trade the coins immediately for BTC, then what we will see is a super-high price the first week, and a lowering price every week thereafter. (Because presumably people will want to buy advertisements the first week, thus creating a market.) Of course, I guess we see this with all new altcoins; supply is limited at first so the price is sky-high, and then it dwindles down. And of course you're right, there will be some inflation priced in, but IMO it would be best to mitigate this somewhat, if only for morale reasons. Especially since some of the previously unpaid content creators are owed "back pay" so to speak, it would be good to front-load the distribution IMO. I know some people will disagree with this and call it a "pre-mine" or whatever, but hey. LTB-the-network has value for a reason, and that value has been created through the hard work of its creators and contributors. I think it's fair for them to be rewarded for time put in up to now. But hey, I'm just throwing it out there.
I haven't seen any discussion regarding fiat being be used on the LTB network. In fact it will be exclusively LTBcoin and your proposed statement in quotes that LTBcoin is the only currency that will be accepted is precisely what is planned. LTBcoin will be immediately tradeable for BTC and any other asset available on the Counterparty distributed exchange, though we still have to work out the details as regards trading it for fiat.There was a discussion upthread betwen mmanvil74 and Adam which revolved around this idea:
One other idea I had was that audience members could be given the option to browse free content as usual (receive no LTBcoin) or opt to become a premium (paid) member and the membership fee would include receiving a certain number of LTBcoin (based around or below market value at the time).
The idea being to pay for membership (with fiat or BTC, or both/either?) and receive LTBcoin in return.
As for an exchange between LTBCoin and fiat, that is for the market to decide. Of course initially LTBC<-->BTC will work, and fiat<--->BTC, so there's always going to be an indirect relationship. But I'm sure that if it catches on, we'll see people selling LTBCoin directly for fiat, and if there's enough demand then someone will start an exchange. Not to mention that XCP will presumably have fiat-denominated assets, which will be tradable for LTBCoin.0 likes -
Posted on March 26, 2014 at 12:35 AM
slashbinslashbash said:Yes, but assuming that some people want to trade the coins immediately for BTC, then what we will see is a super-high price the first week, and a lowering price every week thereafter. (Because presumably people will want to buy advertisements the first week, thus creating a market.) Of course, I guess we see this with all new altcoins; supply is limited at first so the price is sky-high, and then it dwindles down. Hmm, interesting. I hope that's not how things play out...-CC
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Posted on March 26, 2014 at 1:00 AM
Adam said: Its too bad people pick teams. Nope, XCP is release 1 and from my convos with mastercoin they would have to hand make our user created asset for at least the next month, so XCP is actually quite a bit ahead IMO
It's hilarious how no matter what I do, people accuse me of being bought off. ;).
It's a bit ridiculous... I agree that XCP is currently in the best place to issue a metacoin right now. I'll also be excited to see how Mastercoin develops and I think NXT's asset exchange is very interesting, though seemingly very limited at the moment. XCP is the right choice for now.
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Posted on March 26, 2014 at 4:19 AM
CryptoCoin said: @sull, I agree with nearly everything you just said
I don't want anyone to get screwed over... but I'm personally not a fan of regulation or registries. Binding free currencies back to a registrant obviously has it's pros, but I don't believe that's really in line with the experiment that we're performing here - both here with LTBcoin and more generally with crypto-currencies.
Regardless, do you have any specific ideas for things WE (early LTBcoin folks) can do to address these issues?
Glad we have a space to talk through these issues before we launch!
-CCYeah it's good to at least talk through these issues and be aware. Anything this community can be knowledgeable about now rather than later on when potential issues arise is a good thing.
You touched on some good ideas for alerting users through these forums, podcast show announcements and maybe email/sms alerts would be apropos.
I'm sure core community members will naturally form a sort of community watchdog.
Thanks for chiming in.0 likes -
Posted on March 26, 2014 at 2:28 PM
cc5alive said:
Adam said: Its too bad people pick teams. Nope, XCP is release 1 and from my convos with mastercoin they would have to hand make our user created asset for at least the next month, so XCP is actually quite a bit ahead IMO
It's hilarious how no matter what I do, people accuse me of being bought off. ;).
It's a bit ridiculous... I agree that XCP is currently in the best place to issue a metacoin right now. I'll also be excited to see how Mastercoin develops and I think NXT's asset exchange is very interesting, though seemingly very limited at the moment. XCP is the right choice for now.
After having looked at both the mastercoin distributed exchange and the counterparty test wallet, I have to agree that counterparty seems to be the wise current choice. And I say that as a mastercoin holder. I hope both projects are successful and I can see Adam is using both (goxcoin), and all I can say is that it's great there is an early, informed mover trying to build things of actual value on both so we can see how well each fly in the "real" world.
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Posted on March 26, 2014 at 4:49 PM
CryptoCoin said:
slashbinslashbash said:Yes, but assuming that some people want to trade the coins immediately for BTC, then what we will see is a super-high price the first week, and a lowering price every week thereafter. (Because presumably people will want to buy advertisements the first week, thus creating a market.) Of course, I guess we see this with all new altcoins; supply is limited at first so the price is sky-high, and then it dwindles down. Hmm, interesting. I hope that's not how things play out...-CC
If people want to cash out to BTC, that would tend to push the price down, not up. The problem will be if everyone decides to hold, though I doubt the price of LTBcoin will be "sky high" unless we see a large influx of speculators. I expect that sponsorships will initially be priced in BTC, though payable in LTBcoin, which will take out the risk for sponsors. (Those are just my thoughts.) Everyone else holding LTBcoin because they believe in it long term should probably get ready for a bit of volatility at first and keep in mind that the price doesn't matter at all at the early stages.0 likes -
Posted on March 26, 2014 at 6:55 PM
rotalumis said:
CryptoCoin said:
slashbinslashbash said:Yes, but assuming that some people want to trade the coins immediately for BTC, then what we will see is a super-high price the first week, and a lowering price every week thereafter. (Because presumably people will want to buy advertisements the first week, thus creating a market.) Of course, I guess we see this with all new altcoins; supply is limited at first so the price is sky-high, and then it dwindles down. Hmm, interesting. I hope that's not how things play out...-CC
If people want to cash out to BTC, that would tend to push the price down, not up. The problem will be if everyone decides to hold, though I doubt the price of LTBcoin will be "sky high" unless we see a large influx of speculators. I expect that sponsorships will initially be priced in BTC, though payable in LTBcoin, which will take out the risk for sponsors. (Those are just my thoughts.) Everyone else holding LTBcoin because they believe in it long term should probably get ready for a bit of volatility at first and keep in mind that the price doesn't matter at all at the early stages.I agree, there will be conflicting movements (people wanting to sell "while the price is still high" hit the market and drive the price down) but you can see it happening with most altcoin releases. The high prices might only last a few hours, but it tends to happen in the same way. I guess there's not really much to be done about it. Even drastically increasing the Day-1 supply will probably not have that much of an effect on Day-1 prices.
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Posted on March 28, 2014 at 2:27 AM
Adam said: Its too bad people pick teams. Nope, XCP is release 1 and from my convos with mastercoin they would have to hand make our user created asset for at least the next month, so XCP is actually quite a bit ahead IMO
It's hilarious how no matter what I do, people accuse me of being bought off. ;).
That sucks that people are basically flinging mud at you saying your being bought off. I saw just some angry comments about bribery. People should understand that you made an informed decision about who would support your LTBcoin creation. Aren't you also creating goxcoin on mastercoin so your supporting more than one coin. In my opinion XCP would be more nurturing to LTBcoin. Why would it take a month for the coin to be made on mastercoin?
Last Edited: March 28, 2014 at 2:28 AM0 likes
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