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cmason

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This has nothing to do with LTBcoin, or Bitcion, or any other cryptocurrency. It has to do with the fact that close to 2000 people have been murdered, nay, slaughtered, while we discuss these things in our comfortable homes in the West.

I'm not going to debate the undebatable, but if you want an American perspective, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ&v=x63jF8GMPuM

I will not entertain racist replies, but feel free to try. Enough is enough, the solution is clear, and it involves no violence: BDS, see this website: http://www.bdsmovement.net. Violent resistance is considered horrible and unacceptable, yet when people adopt a non-violent approach, this is condemned as being almost worse. What do you want? Shall people just lay down and die?

None of this has anything to do with Bitcoin, but it's like playing cards, and avoiding the facts of WWII. You cannot just play cards and pretend the Nazis don't exist. And you can't discuss Bitcoin while ignoring massacres and genocide (and I'm quoting UN, French and British MPs here, not being extreme).

What am I asking? Any Israeli or Israeli company involved in Bitcoin must be shunned. They may be good people, individually, but what they represent is not acceptable. Any Bitcoin company, or podcast, must reject these people, not for who they are, but for what their country represents. Ideally, they shoud publicly state why these people or institutions have been rejected, and why it is important. This is exactly the same thing as was done with Apartheid South Africa.

I want to see the Bitcoin community start a Boycott now. That is the very least we can do. Anyone failing to engage in the Boycott must, unfortunately, be considered complicit.

Posted on August 5, 2014 at 8:34 PM

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• cmason

  

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  @kerneloops [Stefan Molyneux on the subject] (http://youtu.be/iKzlh9kN4HI)

  Starts with a vauge idea of balance, and hope, but turns into a justification for, just about anything. Nevertheless, the historical analysis is partly accurate and explains why Jewish persons wound up in certain professions. And, importantly, it provides historical reasons for the suffering and sacrifice they had to endure. This is very important as it helps to explain the role of Jewish people in history and how Nazi Germany used this fact to exploit people's economic frustration by blaming the Jews. Honestly, I found this very educational, and I am thankful for it.

  Nevertheless, none of this justifies the exploitation, murder and theft of land from the Palestinians, of course.

  Posted on August 5, 2014 at 8:55 PM
  Last Edited: August 5, 2014 at 9:04 PM
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  I have no intention of boycotting anything from Israel, why would I? It took me about 3 seconds to find this -

  http://www.coindesk.com/details-spondoolies-tech-new-bitcoin-mining-asic-leaked-online/

  I am not particularly interested in religious conflicts, or any stupid utopian ideals that deal with heaven-on-earth scenarios. I view both sides as foolish, I am not about to hurt myself on account of lunatics and their beliefs in nationhood, brotherhood, religion, democracy, statehood etc.

  @cmason

  What am I asking? Any Israeli or Israeli company involved in Bitcoin must be shunned. They may be good people, individually, but what they represent is not acceptable. Any Bitcoin company, or podcast, must reject these people, not for who they are, but for what their country represents. Ideally, they shoud publicly state why these people or institutions have been rejected, and why it is important. This is exactly the same thing as was done with Apartheid South Africa.

  I want to see the Bitcoin community start a Boycott now. That is the very least we can do. Anyone failing to engage in the Boycott must, unfortunately, be considered complicit.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 11:42 AM
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  I just want to add that boycotting a nation's products, firstly, says nothing about the individuals whose products you are boycotting, they could just as easily be for/against/indifferent to the war.

  Secondly, and more importantly, when dealing with complexed systems, unless you know definitively the outcome of your actions, in this case a boycott will save lives (actually, I have no real idea exactly what you think boycotting will do in the long run, that is just a guess) then it is just completely ridiculous to take that action in the first place when the only outcome you can be sure of is to hurt yourself by denying yourself something you want.

  i.e. how do you know that by boycotting you will not cause more deaths and make the region less productive and less stable in the long run?

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 11:59 AM
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• cmason

  

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  @page I have no intention of boycotting anything from Israel, why would I? It took me about 3 seconds to find this -

  http://www.coindesk.com/details-spondoolies-tech-new-bitcoin-mining-asic-leaked-online/

  I am not particularly interested in religious conflicts, or any stupid utopian ideals that deal with heaven-on-earth scenarios. I view both sides as foolish, I am not about to hurt myself on account of lunatics and their beliefs in nationhood, brotherhood, religion, democracy, statehood etc.

  A few decades ago, some argued that because a South African doctor developed and performed the first human heart transplant, we shouldn't criticize Apartheid too much. Didn't make much sense then and certainly doesn't now. Are you saying that because Israeli firms are producing some good bitcoin-related technology, it's okay for them to bomb hospitals and UN shelters in Gaza?

  If you live in any Western country, your tax dollars are being sent to Israel, and your country is likely also shipping arms and ammunition, and providing political and diplomatic cover. That means you are involved and you have a responsibility. Maybe you don't care, great, isn't it nice to have the luxury and privilege to take that position?

  You don't have to campaign for Palestine if you don't want, but the very minimum you need to do is stop your own complicity. That means not purchasing products from Israel, or from firms profiting from Israeli crimes. It means telling your public representatives you don't want your money going to support those crimes. Many people are doing more than this, but that is the minimum required to take a neutral stance, so that you can legitimately say you are not involved, don't care, and aren't taking any sides.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 12:22 PM
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  @page I just want to add that boycotting a nation's products, firstly, says nothing about the individuals whose products you are boycotting, they could just as easily be for/against/indifferent to the war.

  Secondly, and more importantly, when dealing with complexed systems, unless you know definitively the outcome of your actions, in this case a boycott will save lives (actually, I have no real idea exactly what you think boycotting will do in the long run, that is just a guess) then it is just completely ridiculous to take that action in the first place when the only outcome you can be sure of is to hurt yourself by denying yourself something you want.

  i.e. how do you know that by boycotting you will not cause more deaths and make the region less productive and less stable in the long run?

  I replied while you were replying, and I think I addressed your comments. This is not a war game or fictional "what if?" scenario. People are dying, entire towns are being destroyed, and this has been going on for almost 50 years. Our own countries are enabling this. And what the people enduring this are asking for, is not a war, not arms, they are just asking us to stop giving our support to the people killing and ethnically cleansing them. They are asking us to take non-violent measures to stop their suffering. Seems like a very magnanimous and humble request.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 12:33 PM
  Last Edited: August 6, 2014 at 12:35 PM
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• CrimsonRoze

  

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  @cmason What am I asking? Any Israeli or Israeli company involved in Bitcoin must be shunned. They may be good people, individually, but what they represent is not acceptable.

  What they represent if a highly subjective view and falls under the eye of the observer. If they did not wish to represent and you choose to percieve them as representing, then your suggestion is based solely on your thoughts and opinions on a matter broader than your narrow view. Neither Israel or Palestine is single entities, they consist of people.

  See http://thepeacefactory.org/ted-talk/

  Any Bitcoin company, or podcast, must reject these people, not for who they are, but for what their country represents.

  By punishing the people for what their leaders, activist of fanatics represent only weakens the power of the people and strengthens the power of the leaders, activists and fanatics.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 1:04 PM
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  @cmason

  @page I have no intention of boycotting anything from Israel, why would I? It took me about 3 seconds to find this -

  http://www.coindesk.com/details-spondoolies-tech-new-bitcoin-mining-asic-leaked-online/

  I am not particularly interested in religious conflicts, or any stupid utopian ideals that deal with heaven-on-earth scenarios. I view both sides as foolish, I am not about to hurt myself on account of lunatics and their beliefs in nationhood, brotherhood, religion, democracy, statehood etc.

  A few decades ago, some argued that because a South African doctor developed and performed the first human heart transplant, we shouldn't criticize Apartheid too much. Didn't make much sense then and certainly doesn't now. Are you saying that because Israeli firms are producing some good bitcoin-related technology, it's okay for them to bomb hospitals and UN shelters in Gaza?

  No, that is not what I am saying. I was clearer in the second post I made about complex systems ...

  If you live in any Western country, your tax dollars are being sent to Israel, and your country is likely also shipping arms and ammunition, and providing political and diplomatic cover. That means you are involved and you have a responsibility. Maybe you don't care, great, isn't it nice to have the luxury and privilege to take that position?

  Just like I don't take seriously people in far off lands that hold reified beliefs in foolish ideals like the state, nationhood, religion, society, morality etc., I hold persons from the same "Country" as me no differently - not my concern, generally.

  I don't consider any of their actions to be associated, in any way, to me.

  You don't have to campaign for Palestine if you don't want, but the very minimum you need to do is stop your own complicity. That means not purchasing products from Israel, or from firms profiting from Israeli crimes. It means telling your public representatives you don't want your money going to support those crimes. Many people are doing more than this, but that is the minimum required to take a neutral stance, so that you can legitimately say you are not involved, don't care, and aren't taking any sides.

  No, I don't involve myself with fools. I don't look to them for authority, legitimacy for action, law, justice, greater good - nothing. I don't affix my colours to anything external, I act only in my own interest; therefore, I am generally not compelled to action by somebody else's actions and ideas.

  As I mentioned before all you ideas are based on emotions you have for the Palestinians. Your solution for a boycott is nothing more than an action to make yourself feel good and says nothing about the long/short term actions associated with a boycott - a boycott could cause more harm than good, increase the length of the war, cause more deaths, make productivity go down, cause more Palestinian deaths etc.

  I am not interested in a boycott when the only sure outcome is to deny myself.

  Basing action on emotional ideas only is not something I do. You can bark away at me all you like, but you won't likely change me mind.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 1:05 PM
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• cmason

  

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  @page

  I am not interested in a boycott when the only sure outcome is to deny myself.

  Basing action on emotional ideas only is not something I do. You can bark away at me all you like, but you won't likely change me mind.

  Fair enough, I think you have made yourself entirely clear.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 1:08 PM
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  @crimsonroze

  @cmason What am I asking? Any Israeli or Israeli company involved in Bitcoin must be shunned. They may be good people, individually, but what they represent is not acceptable.

  What they represent if a highly subjective view and falls under the eye of the observer. If they did not wish to represent and you choose to percieve them as representing, then your suggestion is based solely on your thoughts and opinions on a matter broader than your narrow view. Neither Israel or Palestine is single entities, they consist of people.

  See http://thepeacefactory.org/ted-talk/

  Any Bitcoin company, or podcast, must reject these people, not for who they are, but for what their country represents.

  By punishing the people for what their leaders, activist of fanatics represent only weakens the power of the people and strengthens the power of the leaders, activists and fanatics.

  Okay, let me ask you if you take this position consistently. Did you support the blanket boycott (and sanctions) against Apartheid South Africa? Do you reject that campaign for the same reasons? Do you also reject the sanctions against Iran, North Korea and Cuba?

  Remember, the point of the boycott against Israel is not to punish anyone, it is to provide real pressure, without the use of weapons, to compel change, as it was with South Africa.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 1:23 PM
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  @cmason

  @page

  I am not interested in a boycott when the only sure outcome is to deny myself.

  Basing action on emotional ideas only is not something I do. You can bark away at me all you like, but you won't likely change me mind.

  Fair enough, I think you have made yourself entirely clear.

  Look, I would rather they were productive, educated individuals partaking in global trade for mutual benefit - the division of labour etc. But, that is just my idea and says nothing about what is really happening on-the-ground.

  These people - politicians, religious zealots, nationalists etc are not interested in my ideas, just like I am not interested in theirs. There's no point in calling for a boycott when the outcomes are not clear. I do understand your concern, but i just don't feel it has any real benefit.

  Posted on August 6, 2014 at 1:27 PM
  Last Edited: August 6, 2014 at 1:27 PM
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