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Proof of Participation point metric adjustments

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Cryptonaut

Hey guys

Now that we have some more detailed stats (http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltbcoin-stats), we can more easily see exactly what kind of actions users are doing, what earns the most LTBcoin etc. Check out this weeks PoP stats for example: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltbcoin-stats?details=70

One thing I have noticed so far is that the "page views" metric seems a bit over powered... For e.g this week out of the top 5 LTBcoin earners, 3 / 5 didnt even make any forum posts, just were fairly new accounts that got a shit ton of page views (note: obtaining a few thousand page views in a week is only really doable one time per account, since there is only so many pages on the site).

Thinking of changing around the point amounts for PoP metrics. Here's a proposal:

  • Magic words: 15 points
  • Forum post or article comment: 10 points [D]
  • Active referrals: 10 points
  • *remove 2 point new user bonus*
  • Post "like": 1 point
  • Page View: 0.5 points [D]

[D] = daily diminishing returns (less points per action the more times you do it in the same day)

what do you think? IMO aligns more closely with what actions we want (participating on forums, listening to the shows) and is less rewarding for just lurkers and people farming new accounts

5 likes
  • hotarugrey

    @cryptonaut

    Thinking of changing around the point amounts for PoP metrics. Here's a proposal:

    • Magic words: 15 points
    • Forum post or article comment: 10 points [D]
    • Active referrals: 10 points
    • *remove 2 point new user bonus*
    • Post "like": 1 point
    • Page View: 0.5 points [D]

    [D] = daily diminishing returns (less points per action the more times you do it in the same day)

    what do you think? IMO aligns more closely with what actions we want (participating on forums, listening to the shows) and is less rewarding for just lurkers and people farming new accounts

    actually i would prefer people to read more than to talk more, but then if the reading part was very abuse-able, nothing could help, but maybe a little more reward as a start with diminishing points, maybe not 0.5. so it will still encourage people to read. for posts, wouldn't it be attract more spammer? well i hope not. and for"like" i would prefer it have a diminishing points to. i see this as an abuse-able point too, e.g *like exchange*, i see lots of thing like this when i first join this forum, something like "like my post and i'll like yours back"

    i propose another change for the rule

    • Magic words: 20 points, this could encourage people to listen more to podcasts
    • Forum post or article comment: 10 points [D] i prefer less, but maybe this will good too. with penalty for every flagged or downvoted posts
    • Active referrals: 10 points
    • *remove 2 point new user bonus*
    • Post "like": 1 point or 2 [D] to encourage people to post better quality posts, that might lead to a good discussion instead of spams.
    • Page View: 5 points [D] I prefer encourage people to read more.

    how do you think?

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    1 like
  • yanuarwisnu

    @cryptonaut Hey guys

    Now that we have some more detailed stats (http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltbcoin-stats), we can more easily see exactly what kind of actions users are doing, what earns the most LTBcoin etc. Check out this weeks PoP stats for example: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltbcoin-stats?details=70

    One thing I have noticed so far is that the "page views" metric seems a bit over powered... For e.g this week out of the top 5 LTBcoin earners, 3 / 5 didnt even make any forum posts, just were fairly new accounts that got a shit ton of page views (note: obtaining a few thousand page views in a week is only really doable one time per account, since there is only so many pages on the site).

    Thinking of changing around the point amounts for PoP metrics. Here's a proposal:

    • Magic words: 15 points
    • Forum post or article comment: 10 points [D]
    • Active referrals: 10 points
    • *remove 2 point new user bonus*
    • Post "like": 1 point
    • Page View: 0.5 points [D]

    [D] = daily diminishing returns (less points per action the more times you do it in the same day)

    what do you think? IMO aligns more closely with what actions we want (participating on forums, listening to the shows) and is less rewarding for just lurkers and people farming new accounts

    I see a lot of users in the Proof of Participation Week 18 Oct 25th - Oct 31st only multiply the number of Page Views. And I'm sure users will make more accounts just to increase the Page View. So I propose to tighten the new account creation .But all the decisions in your hands and you are entitled to decide.

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    0 likes
  • cherapple

    Here's a reminder of the current metric, for comparison:

    Current Proof of Participation points (PoP)

    • Article comment: 4
    • Forum post: 4
    • Unique page view: 1
    • Magic word: 5
    • Post "like" received: 0.5
    • Newly registered (one time): 2
    • Active Referral: 10

    Proposed

    • Magic words: 15 points
    • Forum post or article comment: 10 points [D]
    • Active referrals: 10 points
    • Post "like": 1 point
    • Page View: 0.5 points [D] remove 2 point new user bonus

    Note: comments, posts and "likes" have diminishing returns the more frequently they are done each day.


    Page views are easy to farm and they take the least amount of effort. It's also easy to give "likes."

    It takes more effort to contribute valuable comments, but there's no way for the system to distinguish between valuable and not, except by upvotes and downvotes. Does the system take those into account?

    A forum post should be worth more than an article comment. Giving ten points to comments increases the motivation for one-word, spam comments.

    Can you put a cap on the number of page views an account is allowed to earn, especially if it is anonymous? Is there a reasonable number of pages one person could view in a week? If 3,000 pages covers the whole website, how many new pages are created each week? Cap it at 500 per week? Or 50 per day?

    Ban anonymous accounts? If people want to be here, and they want to participate, then part of participation should include an identity of some kind, even pseudonymous. It could be argued that people with anonymous accounts aren't really here, and aren't really participating. Part of earning LTBcoin could be that you have to have an identity, with a positive reputation tied to it. Anonymous accounts do not get tokens. Accounts associated with extreme behavior -- like 3,000 page views in a week -- get banned. I know that's a fine line to walk, but some behaviors are obviously unacceptable. Robotic, gaming behaviors don't get rewarded.

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    1 like
  • jsea

    @hotarugrey

    @cryptonaut

    actually i would prefer people to read more than to talk more, but then if the reading part was very abuse-able, nothing could help, but maybe a little more reward as a start with diminishing points, maybe not 0.5. so it will still encourage people to read. how do you think?

    I'm entirely sure it's something to do with brain functions, I think!

    Would it be possible to have Magic words in articles ?

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    0 likes
  • Cryptonaut

    @hotarugrey one thing I was thinking about the post "likes"... Does it really make sense to have likes have daily diminishing returns? Typically if a post receives a whole bunch of likes (which will be replaced by weighted upvote/downvote system in near future), it's most likely going to happen within a few days (or on the same day) that the post is created. You wont usually consistently receive likes every day to make it worth while. Maybe a compromise would be to only count likes on posts that are less than 2 weeks old or something? That way you could not have people going through a users entire post history farming points for them or something. Also with the upcoming weighted upvote system, it should make it very difficult for new and low level users to earn anything by exchanging likes/upvotes. The whole idea of rewarding points for receiving likes etc. is to encourage people to create quality posts over spam and small talk (a good post will receive more likes, in theory).

    As for the points for page views... maybe keep the diminishing returns, but bump it up to 2 points per view? Diminishing returns is pretty aggressive anyway, so the first view of the day would be 2 points, second 1 point, third 0.5 points, fourth 0.25 and so on. Or actually, 5 points might be better. With the setting at 5 points, you could view 10 pages a day and get a bit over 10 points (which is actually a little bit better then what you get currently), but after that 10 pages it drops off pretty fast.

    @yanuarwisnu I see a lot of users in the Proof of Participation Week 18 Oct 25th - Oct 31st only multiply the number of Page Views. And I'm sure users will make more accounts just to increase the Page View. So I propose to tighten the new account creation .But all the decisions in your hands and you are entitled to decide.

    Yes, that appears to be what some people are doing.

    @cherapple

    It takes more effort to contribute valuable comments, but there's no way for the system to distinguish between valuable and not, except by upvotes and downvotes. Does the system take those into account?

    You mean the upvote/downvote buttons on the blog article comments? I think it was briefly discussed before but didnt end up getting implemented. It should be though, so I will add that to the list.

    A forum post should be worth more than an article comment. Giving ten points to comments increases the motivation for one-word, spam comments.

    Interesting. You are probably right. Maybe 5 points for article comments..?

    Can you put a cap on the number of page views an account is allowed to earn

    See one of my above comments. With changing it to 5 points per page view and diminishing returns, you could effectively only get a max of around 10 to 15 points per day just from viewing pages

    Ban anonymous accounts? If people want to be here, and they want to participate, then part of participation should include an identity of some kind, even pseudonymous. It could be argued that people with anonymous accounts aren't really here, and aren't really participating. Part of earning LTBcoin could be that you have to have an identity, with a positive reputation tied to it. Anonymous accounts do not get tokens. Accounts associated with extreme behavior -- like 3,000 page views in a week -- get banned. I know that's a fine line to walk, but some behaviors are obviously unacceptable. Robotic, gaming behaviors don't get rewarded.

    There isnt really any "anonymous" accounts actually, we just give people the ability to set their profile to private, which pretty much only hides their username on the stats (as an admin, I can find out whos who anyway, no problem). Which I think is fair.. some people do not like the idea of other people being able to see their exact stats and how much LTBcoin they are getting. Any obvious bots should definitely be banned, but I think for the most part we just need to align the incentives correctly to get the behaviours we want. Can that be called social engineering? :)

    @jsea Would it be possible to have Magic words in articles ?

    Any article can technically have a magic word associated with it, but currently we are only doing this with podcasts and not the purely written content.

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    1 like
  • asdolino

    Someone has exploited the reward system with his thousands multi-account views, I think the points earned should be 0,05 for each page.

    It's really easy to code a script which can visit 3000+ pages/day and this method will be used by more and more people in the next weeks...

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    0 likes
  • Cryptonaut

    @asdolino Someone has exploited the reward system with his thousands multi-account views, I think the points earned should be 0,05 for each page.

    It's really easy to code a script which can visit 3000+ pages/day and this method will be used by more and more people in the next weeks...

    im planning on making the changes to get rid of page view farming before the next LTBc payment this coming weekend,

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    1 like
  • BikerGSX

    I like the idea of more points for the magic words and listening to the shows.

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    2 likes
  • hotarugrey

    @Cryptonaut here's a scenario why i think that "like" can be used to farm easy LTBC

    let say a person have at least 10 referrals or look at last week, there are possibility that people making clones to farm page view.

    say that person and his refs have an agreement, to like every post that other made, as long as it safe from spam flag then the person post atleast 10 posts. that's mean 10 likes per post make it 100 likes per day. this is not impossible to happen. another way is much simpler with clones, you can just like your own posts using the clones. this will be a very easy thing to do. and make post with clones and like it again.

    ok maybe that wont be happen, but it is possible to happen.

    thats why i propose that "like" has a diminishing point, just to prevent something like that to happen..

    or maybe we can just make the "like" as a tip, that a "like" means literally giving away 1 of our point to the poster.

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    0 likes
  • therise

    @hotarugrey

    or maybe we can just make the "like" as a tip, that a "like" means literally giving away 1 of our point to the poster.

    This could be a great solution, in this way we will see only genuine likes :)

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