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Using Counterwallet for Proof Of Existence?

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Rob

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Is there a good way to embed a hash in the blockchain using Counterwallet (with similar results to ProofOfExistence.com, but I'll provide the hash value)? I've heard that it's doable, and someone mentioned using the Broadcast function. I see Address Action>Feed Broadcast, but it doesn't scream as an obvious way to do it, with the various fields that pop up. Anyone know?

Posted on November 11, 2015 at 5:19 PM

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• mdw

  

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  I don't know how to do this with Counterwallet. But I'm dying to ask - Why?

  It's easy to do on Bitcoin, just like the proofofexistence.com site is doing. It's easy to do on pretty much any blockchain, even if it only offers tens of bytes to use as storage, as Bitcoin's OP_RETURN does. But this is already used to embed the Counterparty transaction, so adding the layer of abstraction is confusing me. Is there some use case for not using Bitcoin directly? For example, are you trying to store a large hash that won't fit in the (what is it, 60?) available bytes?

  Posted on November 12, 2015 at 10:15 PM
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• loon3

  

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  @rob Is there a good way to embed a hash in the blockchain using Counterwallet (with similar results to ProofOfExistence.com, but I'll provide the hash value)? I've heard that it's doable, and someone mentioned using the Broadcast function. I see Address Action>Feed Broadcast, but it doesn't scream as an obvious way to do it, with the various fields that pop up. Anyone know?

  Select Feed Broadcast and just paste your hash into the broadcast text field. You can leave all the other fields as is.

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 5:15 AM
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• Rob

  

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  @mdw I was following up on this thread, which I found looking for a cheap yet simple alternative to proofofexistence.com (which I've used enough to want to find a cheaper way): https://counterpartytalk.org/t/proof-of-existence-with-broadcast/451/11

  @loon3 thanks!

  I was going to just ask one of our CP experts directly, but figured this was good info for the forums.

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 6:02 AM
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• mdw

  

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  Cool, ask and you shall find eh? One thing I'm curious about, but too lazy to investigate, is the saving money part. Since CP transactions are embedded in BTC transactions, wouldn't the cost be the same? i.e. one Bitcoin tx fee?

  Also I would suggest that, since for certain kinds of P-of-E transactions you're in no big hurry, the standard tx fee might not be real important to pay at all. Be a miser :) Esp if it's just some personal use case.

  Or if you're not really depending on it persisting over a long period of time, try a cheap blockchain like DOGE. checks flank for attackers Perhaps it can be done in Dogeparty wallet too?? Is that still a thing?

  Also I still don't grok the rationale. If you can stuff it directly in the blockchain, why use an intermediary? Wait, I get it. You're determined to tinker and figure out new ways to do stuff. Kudos to you, and the hacker ethic! runs off to insert hash of this web page via CP wallet broadcast...

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 7:19 AM
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• Rob

  

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  @mdw I think using proofofexistence.com cost about $2 last time I used it. So scaling the cost down to miner's fees is a pretty huge savings!

  You think there's an easier way to do it than using CounterWallet? I just stopped investigating when I saw the CW solution. To me, the small cost is negligible, and worth it vs. another chain. Just didn't want to keep paying $2 a pop!

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 8:05 AM
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• mdw

  

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  @Rob, depends on your goals and what level of comfort is with messing around with stuff. If it's just a few cents and an easy process you're comfortable with then it sounds like just what the doctor ordered.

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 2:40 PM
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• mdw

  

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  Originally I thought, if you run a Bitcoin node, like the reference client (did I hear a groan?) you can copy and paste into the terminal window to insert hashes into the blockchain yourself for just miner's fees.

  But now, I'd say, build yourself some "meta hash". Think about merkle trees, which sound complicated but really it just means taking a collection of hashes and hashing them together 2 at a time until you have only one remaining - the root. Works well because you can run it again, and if the root comes out different, you know something changed in that group of hashes.

  So here's what I think you could do (no it's not a merkle tree, don't worry):

  Hash each item in the group, in whatever group size makes sense for your application, batches of 12 or 25 or 100 or whatever. Now paste all those hashes into a text doc, in exactly the same format every time, like one per line, and hash THAT text doc. Insert this hash value, let's call it the RobHashRoot, into the blockchain and you've now paid only once for many items.

  The most important "gotcha" with any hashing scheme is that you need to keep the original items to prove anything. If you batch these up 20 at a time and stick the RobHashRoot of all 20 in the blockchain, you should keep that text doc with the 20 hashes also, or you'll forget which 20 items were hashed together! Also note that to prove the existence of your original item would NOT require disclosing all 20 original items however, only the original item that hashes to one of those 20 hash values in your text doc.

  Hope that made some kind of sense, otherwise just ignore and be grateful for another Friday :)

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 3:23 PM
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• Rob

  

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  @MDW - That would be great if there was that many items to prove existed, and I didn't feel any rush to publish. But for me, it's more about having one thing I want to prove exists ASAP. So for the way I use POE, the Merkle tree approach does not give me any benefit. But I was just thinking this morning that I want to learn more about how Merkle trees work, and how one can prove individual elements of the tree with one hash, even if you only have one of many documents. Are you an expert in Merkle trees?

  And I agree, I think I hear so much about POE hashes, but not enough about storing the actual data. If you could only have the data or a hash of the data, give me the data! Hopefully products like Maidsafe or Storj will be able to provide safe storage of data and POE at the same time!

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 4:16 PM
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• mdw

  

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  If you simply want to store a document with changes documented and timestamped, a hosted version control site like Github or Bitbucket or similar is perfect. Some of these are free, for unlimited use as well, and come in public and private flavors.

  If, on the other hand, you require having a minimum amount of trust in any central entity, blockchains fit the bill. Hashing is not neccessary unless 1) you do not want to disclose the document until a time of your choosing, as in the case of some legal agreements AND 2) your storage space is limited e.g. Bitcoin. Note that if #1 is true but not #2, simply encrypting the document before storing will suffice, as opposed to hashing it. Hope that's helpful.

  Posted on November 13, 2015 at 5:25 PM
  Last Edited: November 13, 2015 at 5:26 PM
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• PaulSnow

  

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  @Rob, Factom allows you to create your own chain, and place entries in that chain for about a penny for the chain, and 1/10 a penny per 1K up to 10K per entry. Small data is pretty easily (and cheaply) stored. Though you should sign your data to authenticate it (Proof of existence doesn't require it, but if you want to update it over time in your chain, the authentication trail becomes important).

  Factom takes care of creating the Merkle tree and placing the anchor in Bitcoin. The proof then is effectively as strong as placing the entry directly into the blockchain. But the load on the Bitcoin blockchain is only about 12 Meg per year, independent of how much data is logged into Factom.

  Posted on November 22, 2015 at 5:25 PM
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