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The Tax Headache Cometh

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Rob

I'm really curious how people who are doing a lot of LTBc trading, or running businesses that deal with LTBc, are feeling about when tax time comes, and one has to report all these transactions. Even the way Counterparty assets use BTC to send transactions adds a whole layer of work, even for those who insist LTBc are just valueless tokens. I think I will be crying when it comes time to make sense of all my 2014 transactions. I calculated and reported my 2013 Bitcoin realized gains (FIFO basis -- and most gains were due to trying to use BTC as a currency -- I'm not a trader), and thought that was a pain; I can't imagine how hard 2014 will be for me.

Am I the only one dreading this?

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  • shawn_j

    it will be a lot easier if every exchange (including decentralized ones) give you the option to export a csv. there are websites that let you import these, and they do all the math for you. with a disclaimer of course, so you can't sue them if the feds come knocking. I don't vouch for these sites but they may help you:

    https://bitcointaxes.info/

    http://kryptotax.com/

    and some advice: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1uccfz/i_am_a_tax_attorney_here_are_my_answers_to_the/?limit=500

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  • TheWittyHawk

    This is something I'm not looking forward to. For BTC I at least have everything all in one place and I put the current market price at the time of the transaction. I have been doing a lot recently with different counterparty assets and no real good way of keeping everything tracked.

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  • rotalumis

    BBC News: US judicial system crumbles under the weight of nation-wide bitcoin dust investigation

    CNN: Does bitcoin dust cause respiratory problems?

    Fox News: Terrorists use bitcoin dust to suffocate America

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  • DavidBerger

    Accountants definitely need to get smart on Bitcoin before tax time comes around. We are welcoming accountants onto the digitalcurrencycouncil.com platform to get trained up in advance of our launch.

    On another note, I saw that LibraTax has launched an tax software for Bitcoin. Smart and innovative!

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  • BittBurger

    I really think this entire concept is going to need to be revamped. It was really surprising for me to hear that in fairly complex situations, the IRS sometimes makes extremely generous exceptions to their rules. Exceptions that are just plain crazy if you think about them.

    For example, if you sign up on PayPal and begin buying and selling, neither you nor PayPal need to fill out a 1099 unless you exceed 200 transactions and $20,000 in a calendar year.

    Think about that. The IRS themselves looked at the volume, minutia, and royal pain in the ass that PayPal accounting was turning out to be, and instead made a rule that - for all intents and purposes - allows for a possibly immense amount of money changing hands without anyone needing to file a 1099.

    200 transactions and (not "or") $20,000. That means you could to 199 transactions of $1 million each $100mm and nobody - neither you nor the IRS - needs to report it with a 1099.

    Maybe someone, somewhere, will suggest the IRS do the same with Cryptocurrencies?

    -B-

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  • HODL

    @bittburger I really think this entire concept is going to need to be revamped. It was really surprising for me to hear that in fairly complex situations, the IRS sometimes makes extremely generous exceptions to their rules. Exceptions that are just plain crazy if you think about them.

    For example, if you sign up on PayPal and begin buying and selling, neither you nor PayPal need to fill out a 1099 unless you exceed 200 transactions and $20,000 in a calendar year.

    Think about that. The IRS themselves looked at the volume, minutia, and royal pain in the ass that PayPal accounting was turning out to be, and instead made a rule that - for all intents and purposes - allows for a possibly immense amount of money changing hands without anyone needing to file a 1099.

    200 transactions and (not "or") $20,000. That means you could to 199 transactions of $1 million each $100mm and nobody - neither you nor the IRS - needs to report it with a 1099.

    Maybe someone, somewhere, will suggest the IRS do the same with Cryptocurrencies?

    -B-

    Some of the tax returns they receive are literally 1000s of pages in length. Hundreds of forms with even more pages of detail to accompany those forms. The majority are efiled and so they just get ran through a computer. The burden would realistically be on the taxpayer and not the IRS to make sure they are submitting the correct info. The only real burden on the IRS would be the backlash and general consensus through the media of how difficult it would to report that much for a normal person.

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  • bcohen

    I am finding this difficult / cumbersome @Rob

    its not that difficult to figure out tax implications of BTC

    but LTBC is unwieldy

    especially when no markets existed and LTBC was issued

    :(

    SOS @Tron

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  • bcohen

    @rob Are you familiar with the "January Effect" ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_effect

    I think December (i.e. pre-Jan effect) can be a death spiral for alt-coins for the very reason you started this thread.

    "[...]The most common theory explaining this phenomenon is that individual investors, who are income tax-sensitive and who disproportionately hold small stocks, sell stocks for tax reasons at year end (such as to claim a capital loss) and reinvest after the first of the year [...]"

    I thought I was going to take a hiatus from BTC & LTB(C) for a few weeks to get some personal things in order.

    But unfortunately they appear to be inextricably linked to getting myself organized.

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  • Tron

    Hi @Rob,

    I'm not a tax attorney, but I've been accused of playing one on the web.

    My understanding is that prior to having a market value, the cost basis would be 0. Everything else is the same.

    The same situation exists for bitcoin. It did not have a value for years.

    I'd like to get these 2.0 assets added into https://Coinalyze.com

    Tron

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  • Rob

    @Bcohen @Tron

    What if I told you I invoiced LTB for $250, and was paid in LTBc? This was very early on. The exchange rate valued LTBc at many orders of magnitude higher than today's value (a valuation guess was given by Michael Levine). With FIFO, knowing I've spent some LTBc, I'd say I took a loss. And I guess with the trends, we've probably, generally all had mostly losses.

    There were some LTBc values established on exchanges at some point, though I'm not sure if there are records of those valuations.

    How do we account for receiving LTBc in audience participation? In "payment" for writing article, etc.? How about all the other tokens that maybe are bought at auction in LTBc, then sold later for BTC or USD?

    These just seem like some of many examples of the craziness. I remember talking to @thebitcoincpa in early days of LTBc, and he seemed to think most examples of token use I could think of were subject to accounting and reporting.

    Anyway, more of a rambling vent then expecting answers. Brian, I had heard of the January effect, though my memory was fuzzy (just thought it had to do with tax loss selling). Are traders of altcoins thinking about about taxes? I would think many are not, but maybe that's an unfair assumption/judgement on people who actively trade alts… But it is a good idea, perhaps, for the more compliant traders, to balance out for realized Bitcoin gains (even with the price down off highs, I bet many have a FIFO cost-basis below when they perhaps bought alts or other things for BTC.

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