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LTB #139 The Validity of Appcoins Discussion

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  • shawn_j

    Famous rockstar sells 10 tokens that are back stage passes, Doesn't matter what the price of BTC (counterparty) is, if the rockstar honors them the people will assign a price based on their desire independent of BTC.

    this is a REALLY interesting idea, an example of good non-monetary uses for tokens, and I think we will see all kinds of uses similar to this. It doesn't matter how you acquire the token- hang with a band member at a party, know their agent, or engage in "groupie" activities lol.. it all counts for the same thing, backstage access for 1 person, after any show.

    so... you could earn one of these tokens when they're a small band, playing cheap dive bars. then, redeem it 5 years later when they're playing sold out arenas. talk about an increase in value!

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  • Cryptonaut

    Daniel (from the episode) seems to have a really hard time understanding any potential use case of tokens (aka appcoins, metacoins etc.) that cannot be simply done by just using bitcoin. Only thing I can think of is that he has never even used bitcoin at any sort of scale before...

    Lets take LTBcoin as an example. Pretend that instead of LTBcoin, we just gave people BTC as an incentive to post / create content etc.. (and got rid of the weekly deflationary aspect, since its already sort-of built into bitcoin). Say we gave 0.1 BTC a week to audience members. Right now, over 1,000 people are participating each week. If this was split evenly, you would only get 0.0001 BTC per week. Or in other words about enough to pay for a single transaction fee.

    So what happens if we get to 5,000 people per week participating? How about 10,000? Very quickly it turns into a situation where the average user is going to get like maybe 0.00001 BTC per week if they are lucky and post a lot. Would you rather get a tiny fraction of BTC, or something like 5,000 LTBcoin tokens? Or how about the fact that if you have a ton of really small bitcoin payments/inputs, you get totally creamed on transaction fees (sometimes to the point where the fee is worth more than what you are trying to send)? Or the dust limit (min amount you can send and still get confirmed is about 0.0000055)?

    The only solution to the above problem would be to pay people more every week. So instead of splitting up 0.1 BTC... sending 1 BTC, or 10 BTC... as soon as you try and scale at all, the whole operation becomes REALLY expensive both in transaction fees and the amounts needed to send to even make it work. Which makes no sense at all unless all the posts etc. people are making directly increased the sites revenue - which would not happen for simple forum posts.

    Bitcoin itself is just not suitable for an internal community participation incentive/rewards program. Hence why we have LTBcoin. It serves its purpose as an internal community incentive, and is much more mentally satisfying to receive (getting 10,000 LTBcoin is much nicer than getting 0.0001 BTC.. even if it might be worth the same). Not to mention the whole point of it is very specific to this community, not to create a new form of online cash... with just pure BTC people would just save it up and take it and use it somewhere else the vast majority of the time, which defeats the entire purpose of the project.

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  • wct296

    I liked the debate format of the podcast.. the structure is good, but it does mean the podcast doesn't flow that same way discussion podcasts go.

    Personally I think appcoins will work but only in certain areas/apps like Storj... I see the point about frequent flyer type rewards... they may not work unless they have existing intrinsic value in the real world already, prior to them moving to appcoins.. not sure. As with everything we do in this crypto world, we will have to wait and see, but thats half the fun!

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  • cryptoninja

    The power of the appcoin is that, because it is the unique keys for unlocking the "app" of the appcoin, it's a cryptographic self-fullfilling prophecy. The more stakeholders contribute to the appcoin's unique value proposition, the more appcoin they earn, which in turn, increases value that stakeholders will want to unlock via spending their appcoin...this also increases value. Further increasing value is the fact that users can exchange for Bitcoin (as different from a rewards program) and buy something. Another value augmenter is that the appcoin can function as a sort of "share" the user can hold in order to speculate on its increased value in the future.

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  • wct296

    hey nice graphic crypto.. did you just design that up for this forum or did you find it elsewhere?

    how does spending the appcoin increase its value.. unless they subsequently work/buy/earn more?

    And doesnt the issuing of the appcoins decrease/dilute value unless the work/task/purchase related to it is difficult to get? I think appcoins need to be closely monitored so its not too easy or too cheap to obtain them, otherwise they will decrease via dilution alone.

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  • cryptoninja

    @wct296 hey nice graphic crypto.. did you just design that up for this forum or did you find it elsewhere?

    how does spending the appcoin increase its value.. unless they subsequently work/buy/earn more?

    And doesnt the issuing of the appcoins decrease/dilute value unless the work/task/purchase related to it is difficult to get? I think appcoins need to be closely monitored so its not too easy or too cheap to obtain them, otherwise they will decrease via dilution alone.

    Yup, just designed it now, it was fun! Supply and demand...the more demand for the appcoin, the more the value (e.g. for LTBCoin the more people advertise with LTB network, the more valuable it becomes). And the work doesn't have to be difficult, it only needs to add value (e.g. for LTBCoin, create awesome content to lure viewers and, in turn, lure advertisers). I think there will always be a cadre of people that want to extract the value quickly and will buy the appcoin on the exchange to get the valuable thing and move on with their lives. There will be others that may have unique skills to earn more of the appcoin.

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  • cryptoninja

    About the format: I think the showing of both sides of an issue is best done via a benevolent and skilled dictator. Look at how NPR gives airtime for opposing views. This allows the interviewer (dictator for lack of a better term) to not only ask clarifying questions, but to also summarize and paraphrase the responses. Sometimes as Adam Levine is working through concepts in his head and then himself attempting to summarize it, it flows better for me as I'm doing the same. For example, I needed to listen to parts 2 or 3 times to really get into the interviewees' heads. Also, the debate style is adversarial and thereby provides less incentive for opposing views to find common ground as each side is looking to "win" the debate. With crypto, there is a lot of nuance, and so depending on the context, 2 completely opposite views can warp time and space and come together quite nicely sometimes.

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  • wct296

    They should have online voting for the debate and the winning team gets more ltbcoin make it more competitive

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  • Cryptonaut

    @wct296 They should have online voting for the debate and the winning team gets more ltbcoin make it more competitive

    this would be cool, except for this specific debate because the opposing side absolutely hates appcoins & altcoins and think LTBcoin is pointless :p

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  • wildjo

    @cryptonaut

    @wct296 They should have online voting for the debate and the winning team gets more ltbcoin make it more competitive

    this would be cool, except for this specific debate because the opposing side absolutely hates appcoins & altcoins and think LTBcoin is pointless :p

    I like this idea. Another use of the appcoin and it could motivate participants to really do their homework for the episode. Sometimes it's easy to find a talking head, but unless they have a passion for the topic or some other motivation, they may not the incentive to do the best job. In law, this is called "standing" and "real party in interest".

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