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It's Expensive Using Bitcoin!

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  • adam

    @troy112 Can't we have something like internal transaction, like cryptsy trade key. The funds can move internally in counterwallet's servers and when we wanna trade them out or to get it in other wallets we can send it on bitcoin blockchain. What do you think about this?

    We actually made a conscious decision not to do this. There are the advantages you mentioned, but it also puts a lot more trust on LTB which the token is in large part designed to make unnecessary.

    That said, we are looking at this as one of several solutions to what will be a more meaningful long term problem.

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  • JayeK

    @popinjay

    @adam Todays distribution to 419 people cost .05BTC in tx fees! This cost is only going to grow as the audience grows, how do you think we should deal with this?

    Set up a donation BTC address used for this only so it's transparent and known. Maybe you would get enough weekly, not sure?

    I was going to suggest this too. Or if we could agree on a adjustment to the distribution to account for a delivery tax.

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  • William

    Seems like this is a tradeoff for using counterparty on the BitCoin blockchain... If these fees can't be controlled it could really make this project difficult in the long run. Theoretically, could LTBcoin be migrated away from counterparty to a different protocol, if needed at some point in the future?

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  • Cryptonaut

    @adam I would say make that donation address :p honestly I would be willing to contribute to the weekly transaction fees needed and it sounds like others would to

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  • Doogy

    @william Seems like this is a tradeoff for using counterparty on the BitCoin blockchain... If these fees can't be controlled it could really make this project difficult in the long run. Theoretically, could LTBcoin be migrated away from counterparty to a different protocol, if needed at some point in the future?

    I was also going to suggest the delivery tax thing until I saw this idea which got me thinking. Do you mean you would move it to litecoin blockchain lets say for the sake of this argument? or where you thinking a different platform on the bitcoin blockchain?

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  • adam

    @doogy

    @william Seems like this is a tradeoff for using counterparty on the BitCoin blockchain... If these fees can't be controlled it could really make this project difficult in the long run. Theoretically, could LTBcoin be migrated away from counterparty to a different protocol, if needed at some point in the future?

    I was also going to suggest the delivery tax thing until I saw this idea which got me thinking. Do you mean you would move it to litecoin blockchain lets say for the sake of this argument? or where you thinking a different platform on the bitcoin blockchain?

    Not litecoin... But there is another

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  • cmason

    Three things. First, I don't think there should be a dependency on people donating to cover transaction fees, that's an unsustainable kludge. Even if you had enough people willing to do it, you can't depend on it, and it's a hack that addresses the symptoms but not the problem. You could reserve a percentage of the LTBCOIN distribution as a fee to cover costs. This remainder could then be sold to pay back the transaction fees. If no other solution presents itself, I don't think most people would object to this. It's like a delivery charge, we are sending you something, but we have to cover our delivery costs.

    Second, if quick distribution is not required, perhaps Counterparty could implement a change so that token distribution is done for zero or very low fees with the understanding that it might take several hours (or longer) for the distribution to be completed. Zero-fee Bitcoin transactions do go through, they just take longer. This wouldn't be used for trades or general use in Counterparty, just, optionally, in the case of asset distribution, for those that want or need this.

    Third, maybe Counterparty could implement logic to bundle token distribution events into a single, larger, Bitcoin transaction. Miners don't like large transactions, but with a higher fee they will happily process them. Even with a higher fee for a single transaction, this would likely be much lower than the aggregate of hundreds (or thousands!) of individual transactions. Just not sure of the technical feasibility.

    I think the main problem is just that LTBCOIN has become one of the biggest users of Counterparty, and that's where the rubber hits the road and practical issues come up. I expect them to solve this, either through one of the two options I mentioned or something else I never considered. Worse case scenario, I would totally support LTB using a "delivery charge", I think that would be fair and reasonable, and it is a solution you could implement on your own, without requiring infrastructure changes you cannot control.

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  • CrimsonRoze

    I believe this problem will soon manifest itself in a different manner, as bitcoin core will release an updated client with a dynamic fee model that might make the problem become irrelevant, just as well as it could make the problem become very urgent.

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  • cmason

    @crimsonroze I believe this problem will soon manifest itself in a different manner, as bitcoin core will release an updated client with a dynamic fee model that might make the problem become irrelevant, just as well as it could make the problem become very urgent.

    Yes, I have read about that, but so far as I understand it, it's just an attempt to make fee calculation/estimation more accurate so that users don't inadvertently send out a transtion that will take 2 hours to confirm. I have had this happen myself, I assume Bitcoin-QT will pick the right fee, yet often it sends my transaction out for no fee. Great, except I have to wait longer than I expect.

    I don't believe the new floating fees will make much difference with respect to Counterparty, or, if anything, it might actually increase fees.

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  • adam

    @cmason

    @crimsonroze I believe this problem will soon manifest itself in a different manner, as bitcoin core will release an updated client with a dynamic fee model that might make the problem become irrelevant, just as well as it could make the problem become very urgent.

    Yes, I have read about that, but so far as I understand it, it's just an attempt to make fee calculation/estimation more accurate so that users don't inadvertently send out a transtion that will take 2 hours to confirm. I have had this happen myself, I assume Bitcoin-QT will pick the right fee, yet often it sends my transaction out for no fee. Great, except I have to wait longer than I expect.

    I don't believe the new floating fees will make much difference with respect to Counterparty, or, if anything, it might actually increase fees.

    We are not trapped, we have lots of options. I agree with you the new fee structure will cause tx fees to go up broadly

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